Oneness - Clarity and Joy of Life through Advaita by Madhukar - HTML preview

Interview with Madhukar by Marianne Scherer for yoga aktuell, August/September 2006.

Did your experience of enlightenment arrive out of the blue, or how long were you spiritually traveling beforehand?

MADHUKAR: I have been spiritually traveling as long as I can remember. As long as there has been consciousness, there has also been existential, spiritual and religious experience. And a searching for Being, an intensive spiritual seeking.

Long before this powerful experience of enlightenment in the 1980s, I always used to ask myself many philosophical and religious questions. Questions that occur automatically to anyone with common sense. Why then at the time— indeed out of the blue—this experience of enlightenment transpired, not during

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some intensive spiritual exercise or retreat but spontaneously, is something I cannot say.

What I experienced at the time is something that might be explained as an explosion of Kundalini energy. All the Chakras open. That is something wonderful, something that many seekers strive for. I was suddenly catapulted into these experiences. Or, to say it better, I was catapulted out, via various stages of consciousness and transcendental experiences beyond time and space, coupled with bliss, manifestations of light, etc. These transcendental experiences, however, are not what I now refer to in Satsang . Instead, I point to That, which is deeper, and which I simply call Self or Heart. It is also called awakening. As for enlightenment, there are distinctions to be made. For Sri Ramana Maharshi, the guru of my master Poonjaji, enlightenment is the realization of the true Self and not what according to the yogic tradition is usually called Samadhi. For the Jnani, the yogi of knowledge, absolute consciousness—the permanent dissolution of the identification with body and mind—is enlightenment. As opposed to having states of enlightenment.

Is that then Nirvikalpa-Samadhi, which is considered the highest state of enlightenment?

MADHUKAR: No, because Nirvikalpa-Samadhi is also still a state of enlightenment. What I refer to is also called Sahaja Samadhi—natural enlightenment.

Not a state, like the various experiences of Samadhi , but instead a permanent experience of Being. That which always is does not come and does not go.

This is the highest yoga, Jnana-Yoga. In the yoga of knowledge, it is no longer a matter of practicing Asanas, practicing breath exercises, or using meditation to reach other states of consciousness. In the highest yoga , what is at stake is the lasting realization of the true Self.

But then one might just drop everything and hope that one will someday, somehow realize the Self! Since we Western people are oriented around doing and progress, this idea seems almost a provocation …

MADHUKAR: This comes from this program that is deeply rooted within us and that says that you have to do something to achieve something. That you have to make an effort. Undoubtedly yoga exercises and meditation are good for body and mind. But they are not part of Advaita. Here all that is of concern is the revelation of the effortless Self .

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Interest in Advaita is growing. Why is that?

MADHUKAR: Literally translated, Advaita means “Not-Two” or “Non-Duality.” Advaita is the mystery of Oneness in which there is no separation. Oneness and peace are appealing and naturally are attracting more and more people, even here. Our mind, our powers of understanding, cannot grasp the Self.

The original source, pure life force—which of course also gives life to the organ of thought—is seldom recognized and even more seldom consciously lived. Just as one can see one’s own eye only with the help of a mirror, truth is also not seen. The eye can be intuited or touched, but one cannot see it. It’s just the same with the Self. For this reason, it seems to many people difficult to simply be. And being pointed in the direction of Oneness can even be seen as a provocation, as you point out.

So someone who finds his way to true Advaita is usually someone who has prepared himself for this in advance, who has practiced spiritual exercises, who has lived various things and brought various things to bear in his life. Although a certain spiritual maturity is present, he comprehends that he has not yet reached the final level of truth. And his search goes even deeper, into self-enquiry, into Atma Vichara.

Is this how it was for you as well?

MADHUKAR: Yes. When I was blessed to have this wonderful enlightenment experience that so many yogis und spiritual seekers strive for—Oneness and transcendence of time and space, the experiences of light and bliss I spoke of earlier—this was a great blessing, an instance of grace. But I soon realized that these experiences were not yet the final truth. People who have had some sort of enlightenment experience are quick to make a concept out of it and write books about their experience. But I asked myself further questions, or rather they presented themselves to me of their own accord: Who had this experience? To whom did it happen? To whom is this opening-up happening, this enlightenment? Who is absolutely here?

Advaita starts actually with this kind of questions and with the realization: This is not it. That is not it. The body is not it. This seeking was not it. What the mind experiences and imagines is not it either. Then realization dawns. Surrender is helpful, on the one hand, and on the other: self-enquiry. Or else realization simply explodes spontaneously.

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What actually happens in your Satsang? I’ve watched the people taking part.

Some sit there happily, a few of them seem to be staring daggers at you, others seem to be in a trance, some appear insecure, some doubtful …

MADHUKAR: This is a mystery. In the silence of Satsang something indescribable happens. People experience peace during Satsang. And for many this peace continues even afterward. People come to me, drawn by this peace, this love. Once they have experienced peace and also this love that arises from it, they continue to feel drawn and keep coming back.

Krishna, the incarnation of love, who like Christ is often portrayed as a shepherd, drew people to him magnetically with his eyes. Through him, they experienced love and joy, and experienced that the aspect of joy in life, of happiness plays a major role.

It isn’t merely a matter of just sitting quietly; it is also very lovely when, for example, one can experience joy and love while dancing or speaking. This love is an expression of self-realization. For through the realization that only peace is, love reveals itself. I keep saying again and again: Absolute reality is silence, absolute silence.

Originally there was only silence and emptiness and from this the universe came into being as a first expression of love. Only through the duality of the mind does everything fall into the states that we call good or bad, joy or pain etc. But originally everything was love, and it is very lovely when people in Satsang have the same experience.

Did you also experience this with your teacher Papaji?

MADHUKAR: Yes, he was suffused by a tremendous love, although there was also a certain radicalness in the way he kept persistently referring his visitors or devotees to their Self, to the truth that in the Here and Now one is not the person confined to body and mind, but rather that in reality peace is. When this orientation toward consciousness as such is present, the mind with its dogged orientation toward the future or the past, toward old experiences, must give way. And then one is in the Now. In the Now there is peace, and in peace, love is revealed.

Nowadays so many people are on a spiritual path. And some of them have had smaller or larger enlightenment experiences—which, however, usually do not stick. With you that was different. Do you see this as grace?

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MADHUKAR: Everything is grace. That we are sitting here now. That I can eat a buttered pretzel. That we can speak. Everything is grace. Naturally it is also an important instance of grace that we can recognize the Self and are permitted to dwell in it.

Why are people incarnated in a particular country? You for example were born in the Christian tradition but now are teaching Advaita. Is this a special task that was given to you?

MADHUKAR: In Christianity, in Buddhism and in Hinduism there are the most diverse conceptions of incarnation. There is the notion of souls that go on living, that have a continued life that is trans-body, as it were. There is also the principle of reincarnation, the development from animal to man and possibly then back again. These are all possibilities that might be true, but might also be imaginary. In any case they are concepts.

One thing that is certain is that we are here. The body too is important, and we ought to treat it with care. And just the same applies to our intelligence, our surroundings, our fellow man, the environment and our culture of freedom.

Is this why you returned to Germany after spending long periods of time in India?

MADHUKAR: Yes, because I love mankind. I returned to Germany to be in Satsang. Because I know the people here very well and for this reason I can be useful to and serve them. I know the German virtues and vices, for instance the depth of the mind, the earnest search for truth and happiness, for mental realization, the admirable ability to learn from history and the great capacity for transcendence. But I am also familiar with a certain ponderousness and melancholy that one finds here.

With great joy and admiration I see that the people here have really learned something, that they move on, that they deepen and take an interest in having peace in the world. Many come to me because they want to know who they really are, because they are in search of their true Self. In self-realization, nationality, gender and all history disappears. Only consciousness is here.

The challenges of everyday life remain, of course, but one can then live with them better and more joyfully.

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The people in Satsang gaze expectantly at the teacher, almost as if they are expecting miracles from him. Isn’t this a challenge if not a temptation for the teacher?

MADHUKAR: For some teachers this might be the case, but I do not describe myself as a teacher. Some see me as an ordinary person. With them I interact in the usual way. Others see me as a master, one who has awakened. The master does not depend on praise and blame, on criticism and adoration. Idol-izing me doesn’t do anything for me. For me, all that matters is calling attention to That, which is absolute reality. And to the fact that we are in truth free. That we can experience inner peace and live in peace. For me, this is the main thing.

How do your students develop—I mean the people who come to Satsang?

MADHUKAR: It’s different in each case. When people feel that what I am saying speaks to them, they practice self-enquiry at least for a certain time, and then all sorts of different things start happening in their lives. What exactly happens is something that cannot be predicted in advance. For some, realization sets in gradually, while for others it comes all at once. Some people change their lives, even though I do not ask this of them. Things tend to come about of their own accord.

Many people are grateful and come to tell me about wonderful experiences they have had during or after Satsang. Many people go on to live a more joyful, happier life, they are liberated from their fears and worries. They take more pleasure in life, become more human, more loving and more clear. That’s how it should be.

So you do not make any concrete suggestions?

MADHUKAR: When people are close to me, this can happen. Everything simply happens. In Satsang people have the opportunity to ask questions pertaining to their daily lives that are important to them. It doesn’t always have to be about awakening. People also ask about private things, and I answer as is appropriate in the given situation.

What was your relationship like to your teacher Papaji, or how does it work now that he is no longer in his body?

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MADHUKAR: It would be so wonderful if he were here now and I could sit with him! Astonishingly, the night he left his body, there was only the greatest joy within me, an indescribable joy. At the time I was driving from Berlin to Amsterdam, listening to Krishna music. Papaji, who was a great Krishna - Bhakta, gave me a present: pure, simple pleasure. Since then there has just always been joy here. I don’t even have to think of him consciously, because he is always here.

He is the Self. Therefore, like him, I see no difference between him and me.

This is very beautiful just as it is.

It strikes me that when you speak German you use the formal address “Sie”

with people. Most teachers call their students informally, “Du.” Are you trying to create distance?

MADHUKAR: No, this is quite simply the form of address that shows respect.

Chumminess would not be fitting for Satsang. To show mutual respect is very useful. Papaji’s first language was Persian, and in this language one uses formal address when one speaks to the people one loves and is close to—out of respect.

Meanwhile, one speaks informally to a stranger on the street—the opposite of how it is in Germany. Using this formal address in German just happened for me. There is a great closeness between me and individual students. And there was a great sense of veneration I felt towards Papaji. This respect was very beneficial for me, I could make use of it. And perhaps others in my Satsang feel the same way.

Was Papaji a strict master?

MADHUKAR: On the one hand he was loving and full of laughter. On the other, he could treat visitors, depending on the situation, with great clarity that could also be seen as severity. Because he always confronted everyone who came to see him with absolute truth. He did not tell people to go on meditating for years, etc., but instead he told them to enquire directly into the Self . He explained things strictly, but also with and out of love.

It was his main concern to bring people to stop postponing their spiritual awakening but rather to see to it here and now. He would say: “Stop looking, stop what you are doing, be quiet and realize!”

What would you say to people who ask you: How do I find happiness?

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MADHUKAR: I would answer: True happiness is rediscovered through self-realization. Silence is very important for this. We doggedly identify with our own person, with our experiences of joy and pain. And in the process we overlook what is always there: bliss. It always is, I do not have to produce it or work for it.

All I have to do is allow it. Generally we look for happiness in success, wealth and partnerships. We chase after a thousand desires, but all we find by doing this is transitory happiness. The chase is in vain. It is advantageous to just stop what we are doing and realize that happiness is already here.

Absolute happiness is transneuronal. Ordinary happiness comes about through sensuality and wish-fulfillment. It comes and goes, it is temporary. It is directed only by biochemical reactions in the brain that usually we are not conscious of. True happiness, however, is originally and always here. It is all-encompassing. No one can give it to us or take it away. True happiness is unchanging. Through self-enquiry we realize this happiness. Many methods are intended to create happiness: meditation, singing, practicing, etc. Yet in all this the time factor plays a role: the process can take a long time. In my Satsang I call attention to what always exists: Being. Through surrender—which is generally difficult for people in the West—or self-enquiry, directing one’s consciousness to consciousness itself, effortless Being is revealed.

Does one need a guru or teacher?

MADHUKAR: I had the experience that meeting Papaji was very beneficial for me although I hadn’t been looking for a guru. At first I was just drawn to him because of his love and clarity. I immediately recognized that he was speaking the truth. In Satsang with him I felt relief and silence. When I was then back in my daily life, my mind often became even more clamorous than before. And then I was beset with fears of rules and dogmas. But Papaji was not like this.

He persistently kept emphasizing who I really am. And he told me to use self-enquiry. It’s just the same in my own Satsang: I counsel people to use self-enquiry. In my presence, people can have an existential experience, and that’s what also people tell me: Peace is!

Can anyone come at any time to your Satsang? Isn’t there some required preparation or initiation?

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MADHUKAR: The meetings are public. Anyone who feels drawn to participate is welcome, assuming people follow the usual courtesies in interacting with others.

Can you recognize a student’s state of development?

MADHUKAR: There is no difference between master and student. There are neither teachers, nor students, nor teachings. In reality there is only the Self.

For this reason I do not make separations. People see themselves as students or devotees and see me as a teacher. A true master can be beneficial, even extremely beneficial. One can take advantage of the master’s presence.

Traditionally, after all, it is said that without a guru one cannot find one’s way out of the labyrinth of sensory perception and the thicket of intellectual experience. The master is an aid, because he emphasizes the true Self. Sometimes people come to me and wonderful things occur. Someone who comes to a true master does not have to do anything else. Everything takes place through him.

One might express this more or less in this way: Do nothing and be happy!

Are you going to continue to remain in Germany?

MADHUKAR: After my first invitations I originally wanted to come here only for a short time, in order to share my experience of Being in Satsang. But so many people came and many very beautiful loving relationships developed. For this reason, I am still here.

Do you want to found an ashram yourself?

MADHUKAR: No, most certainly not. No one has ever awakened in an ashram.

Teachers found ashram s. But beforehand they should have awakened, because only then will they truly be able to serve mankind. Otherwise they are just burdening others with additional exercises and obligations.

Your book “The Simplest Way" (Stonehill Foundation) contains dialogues from your Satsang. Will you publish other books?

MADHUKAR: The book you mention was not written in the classical sense, but rather contains transcriptions of meetings with me. These are documents of the

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search for Being. Sometimes one experiences something wonderful. This happens because of grace.

Usually one is then tempted to conceptualize it, to explain how others can achieve the same thing, what should be done to have such an experience. In time, this concept becomes a religion. And once more one is back in the very same history that’s been repeating itself for millennia. For this reason I do not write any conceptual books. Instead, what takes place in Satsang—silence, people asking questions, my answering, silence—is recorded.

What of course cannot be communicated in a book is the wonderful energy that flows in Satsang, the mystery of Oneness, the love and the peace. This experience takes place in the direct Being with one’s master. It is a precious thing to come to Satsang.

What is the fundamental insight of Advaita?

MADHUKAR: A trilogy has been written about the life of my master Papaji. The title is: Nothing ever happened. This is the truth. The lovely thing is that even neurology, the modern science of the brain and consciousness, and even modern physics are gradually beginning to address this secret of Existence and Nonexistence. Quantum mechanics, for example, explains that there are particles tinier than quarks called strings that are real, on the one hand, and at the same time nonexistent.

Such is life. It is and it is not. We enjoy it, we have our experiences, we suffer from it, but in reality it is empty: Everything comes, everything goes. Peace is.

This is the fundamental insight of Advaita!

Thank you very much for this interview!

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