Oneness - Clarity and Joy of Life through Advaita by Madhukar - HTML preview

Interview with Madhukar conducted by Thomas Klein of klein media service on September 26, 2004 in Berlin.

What would you describe as the heart of your message?

MADHUKAR: Every human being, regardless of his life circumstances, is freedom and peace.

118

Is this at the same time the basic message of Advaita?

MADHUKAR: Yes, the basic message of Advaita is: You are That! One. Being.

This That contains everything. In our culture and in the Christian tradition it is called God. The entire universe. In the tradition of Advaita, That is described as Sat-Chit-Ananda.This is generally translated as Existence-Consciousness-Bliss.

In my experience, bliss is nothing more than a phenomenon experienced in the body and mind. Pure realization is: Peace is absolute truth. Accordingly, I would describe That as Existence-Consciousness-Peace.

Advaita is a philosophical orientation, and philosophy can naturally never truly explain Being or the experience of Being—all it can do is seek to interpret it. Absolute truth is: The Divine is already here. It does not come from outside but rather is within every one of us. There is no separation. Only Being. There are no Two. This is the essence of Advaita. This word from the Indo-Germanic Sanskrit means, literally, “Non-Duality.”

You ask the people who listen to you to engage in self-enquiry. What is the nature of self-enquiry? How is it practiced?

MADHUKAR: I don’t demand anything of anyone. I assume that people come to the meetings with me because they want to experience absolute truth. Because they want to realize who they are. For this reason I advise self-enquiry.

I find the word “self-enquiry” more accurate than “self-exploration,” by the way, because exploration as we usually understand it has to do with activity, with searching.

Self-enquiry implies two different things: First of all, it has to do with the Self.

The Self always has to do with me myself. The Self in modern science describes what constitutes our consciousness. The scientists, neurologists and psychologists do not know with certainty whether or not the consciousness in question is a personal one. Or whether there is only an absolute consciousness that is only seen as individual consciousness because of the identification with body and mind. For thousands of years, Advaita has drawn attention to the Self as transpersonal reality.

Secondly, self-enquiry involves plumbing the depths of the Self. The German word for it, “Selbstergründung,” contains the word “Grund” meaning “fundament” or “ground” and points to the foundation of Being. I understand the orientation toward self-enquiry not as a sort of investigation carried out by the mind but rather as a permanent awakening from our dream of everyday life, the

119

dream of an apparent reality: To arrive here and sink down to the depths of absolute truth, to be present. Absolute truth for me is something very natural, something very normal. In the terminology of Advaita we call this Sahaja Samadhi, natural Being. Since I know that everyone is That, it is also possible for everyone to plumb the depths of That.

In the old tradition of the wise men, conditions were often imposed, requiring one to open oneself to a particular path or to practice a certain path of knowledge. What about self-enquiry? Can anyone do it? Are there physical, mental or moral prerequisites for engaging in self-enquiry with success?

MADHUKAR: It is not my business to tell people: “You must do this or that and only then will you be able to realize who you are.” I have no desire to burden anyone with moral and ethical restrictions. Everyone has a certain notion of ethics based on his upbringing and culture and lives according to or in violation of these notions. Here, however, we are not talking about morals but about finding out who truly is. No prerequisites are needed. It suffices for someone to feel an ardent longing for freedom. If there really is freedom, it must be here and now. If there is truth, it must be here and now. It is historically demonstrat-ed that both people who were not considered ethically pure and some who were seen by others as morally outstanding experience awakening, completely independent of their previous lives. If awakening led to their becoming “better”

people, good, but that’s not the main thing. The main thing is self-realization.

And self-realization is possible regardless of all restrictions.

Apparently most people have difficulty awakening spontaneously. It seems there are obstacles to this. What do you see as the reason why the pure information does not suffice for awakening? And what in your experience is necessary to overcome these obstacles?

MADHUKAR: The obstacle is the identification with the body and mind. In a newborn, these things are not yet present. One could say that these things are taught to us. Later what we have learned solidifies in the form of apparent reality, and then one assumes one is this person who in reality is nothing other than a complex network of thoughts and feelings.

Very helpful is self-enquiry with the simple question: “Who am I?” Generally it is wrongly assumed that self-enquiry is an exercise in order to attain a certain state or the goal of awakening. In reality, however, self-enquiry serves to un-120

mask the obstacles that lead us to believe that we are not free. Beyond this, having contact with someone who has already awakened is highly beneficial.

How do the perceptions of someone who has awakened differ from those of an ordinary person? Does he see his surroundings differently?

MADHUKAR: The difference is in the identification I have been talking about.

The one who has awakened is the Self. The ordinary person, on the other hand, is completely identified with his physical and mental perceptions, his moods and whims. One could go so far as to say he is dependent on his body fluids, a prisoner of the biochemical reactions in his brain. He too is a product of the “heart,” but he is identified with the I-thought. The one who has awakened, meanwhile, has realized beyond all doubt that he is That, the eternal, in which everything occurs.

Now it isn’t that I am constantly walking down the street saying to myself:

“I am the eternal in which everything occurs.” Being is utterly natural. A separation between the eternal and the appearances of ordinary humanity quite simply does not take place. As we know, every one of us perceives the world subjec-tively, and nonetheless we assume there is a fixed, existent, objective reality.

I too perceive this world with its beauty and suffering, and yet the consciousness of existence itself, the Self, which is not influenced by any of this, is simply more sustained and sustainable. Truth is of great clarity and naturalness.

Is awakening a process or a moment? Can you describe the before and after from your own experience?

MADHUKAR: As long as you assume you are caught up in a process, it will look as though you are in this process. Between illusion and truth, between ordinary life and the lightning-flash of reality. Deep sleep, dream, the waking state— who is perceiving all of this? In the moment in which you awaken, you realize that you were always awake, that you were never anything other than this presence and had merely directed your attention to appearances. I would like to compare this with our perception of the sun. As we know, the sun is always shining. On a cloudy day, however, we say: “There’s no sun today.” But the sun is always there. It is just that clouds have come between us and the sun. When the cloud cover splits, people say: “The sun is shining.” In just the same way, we say in the morning: “The sun is rising.” But in reality, it is just that we turn away from the sun in the evenings, and in the morning we turn back towards it.

121

What is described as awakening was also always here. In reality there is no awakening. If there were an awakening, this would mean that we hadn’t been awakened before. In reality freedom is always here. It will become clear to you that you were already awake for many moments in your life, but you hadn’t realized beyond all doubt what reality is. No one had emphatically declared to you: Truth is now! True Self is now! When you “awaken,” you realize that you were always awake. There is nothing else.

How did you experience this moment of awakening? As a consequence of your efforts? Or to what did you attribute it that you awakened at a certain moment?

MADHUKAR: I attribute it to grace. The efforts are only apparent efforts. These efforts might well have been necessary for the person, but not for what I am.

What I am requires no efforts. With the help of grace I followed this longing for freedom, I followed the call of my master. For when I heard his message for the first time, it was being reported to me by a yogi who spoke negatively about Papaji, someone who had a bad opinion of this master who at the time was unknown to me. I was not influenced by his opinion, but rather I heard Papaji’s message of freedom: “You are already free! You don’t have to do anything! You do not need to meditate, you don’t require any sadhana, any spiritual exercises!” This was like a cudgel blow. Glass clear. I could only affirm: “Yes! Yes!

Yes!” Why? Because before, when I had be striving, just like so many others, getting up early every day, practicing my exercises and meditating. For years and decades. I realized that although all these activities had brought me wonderful experiences such as people with spiritual interests long for—such as enlightenment, explosions of energy, transcendental states, the experience of death, out-of-body perceptions, in other words the most various realities of consciousness, etc.—it had not given me access to true realization: knowing who I am. I was weary of practicing, of all these exercises, of this seeking in Christianity, Shamanism, Buddhism, tantra and philosophy. I wanted freedom.

And when you really strive for freedom and you hear this message of freedom, it is a matter of recognition. Immediate.

Naturally I felt an urge to meet this guru right away. I took the next available train and set off on a 42-hour train journey through all of India. At the station of the gigantic city of Lucknow, I suddenly realized that I didn’t even know where he lived. I knew only his name, Papaji, which isn’t his family name—I hadn’t even asked what that was—but merely the honorary title “Venerable Father.”

Nonetheless I found him after a short time, and the first time we met a large

122

burden fell away from me immediately, all my past, all I had learned, everything I had experienced spiritually. I was not able to accept him as my master right away, that came about gradually, as I put into practice what he had recommended. And in this way everything happened just as it must.

Couldn’t one nonetheless say that your earlier efforts bore fruit in your personal awakening, just as traditional yoga methods describe it? In your brief biography I was able to read that you have substantial kundalini experience and traditionally enlightenment is seen as the endpoint of these various experiences.

MADHUKAR: On the yogic path, Samadhi is the goal. Experiencing Samadhi is something wonderful and rare, but this is still a sort of state. There are powerful yogis who are able to control their bodies and minds, but who have nevertheless not necessarily realized who they are. It does look as though making an effort or the so-called spiritual path had led to awakening. In reality it is grace and the presence of the master. It is clear that the spiritual path is nothing more than a form of deferment for many people that prevents them from realizing what is already here. People wear themselves out with these efforts, but all that they achieve is delaying truth. Truth is already here. Why should we practice for this? Why? Because we believe that an impurity in the body or the mind is present, that this or that relationship still needs to be cleared up, that we still have this or that from our childhood or our bond with our parents that requires processing, and many other things. The fact is: The Self has never been touched by any relationships or experiences. The Self is absolutely untouched, absolutely pure: always here, always now!

Once this has been realized, can there still be development for the person?

MADHUKAR: There can be development for the person, but not for the Self.

What do you mean by development?

I am thinking of two wise men, who lived quite close to one another geograph-ically, Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Aurobindo.They had similar realizations, but in the formulation of their teaching—if one can speak of teaching in the case of Ramana—Ramana saw the Self as something static, as it were, while Aurobindo, after experiencing Nirvana, recognized or postulated further stages of development for consciousness.

123

MADHUKAR: Sri Aurobindo assumes that the Divine comes from above, sinks down into the lowlying layers of consciousness and then rises up again. So he assumes a sort of process. This is not my realization, for absolute truth does not know this process, only body and mind know processes. It may have served Sri Aurobindo and his disciples to practice this. Is it absolute truth? The truth is that the Divine is already here, it does not come from outside but is present within each of us.

The spiritual path is often equated with a refining of personality. In moral terms, is there an inevitable change in the psyche, in the mind, after a human being has awakened?

MADHUKAR: This cannot be generalized. It can take many different forms: Some who have awakened withdraw entirely after their awakening. Others have neglected their bodies and lived like savages. Ramana Maharshi , on the other hand, was ready 24 hours a day to receive everyone who came to see him and led a very pure life. In my experience, it comes about of its own accord if something has to be refined or changed. Particularly when you are grounded in self-realization. My master said to me: “You do not need to change anything.”

Striving to become a better human being is clearly noble, but unfortunately it is no guarantee of awakening. Buddha once said: “To reside in the Self for the span of time that an ant requires to crawl from the tip of the nose to its bridge brings more blessings than three lives filled with good deeds.” In other words, the founder of Buddhism, in which empathy and good deeds occupy such a central position, declares the most important thing to be dwelling in the Self.

What motivates you personally to communicate these things? You communicate in the form of your meetings or Satsangs, which have a very definite structure; I would almost like to say it is a certain ritualized form of coming together.

Why in precisely this way? Did you get this from your master? Does this seem to you effective?

MADHUKAR: It is effective! The enormous gratitude that many express to me because of what is happening to them proves beyond all doubt: The meetings are beneficial. I have no motivation. All of this just happens. Sometimes I say in jest: “I am the slave of my master.” Perhaps I can explain this using the old notion of honor in old Indian and German traditions: If you saved someone’s

124

life, they were then indebted to you for the rest of their life. I did not originally have the desire to live and work as I am doing now.

When I went to see Sri Poonjaji , it was just because I had the concrete wish to be free. Everything else followed from this of its own accord. After two years, Papaji prophesized at a Satsang that many people—“the whole world,” he said—would be coming to me. At that time this struck me as highly unreal— and also unappealing. And what happened a few years later? I was invited to hold Satsang by people who felt drawn to me, and I accepted these invitations.

This turned into this yearly tour of meetings, and thousands of people come to share these meetings with me. I find it good the way things are.

As for the form of Satsang, it is indeed such that I see no grounds for a change. The form itself is not so important. What reveals itself in Satsang , what happens there, is what is essential: wonderful and indescribable. The form, on the other hand, is quite simple: on the one hand, silence, and on the other, dialogue. The dialogue serves to clear up questions and doubts. It’s good when people are able to get rid of their doubts. Clarity is wonderful. Clarity is the key to paradise. Why is silence an important component of the meetings? Only in silence can truth reveal itself.

Beyond this, I always utter at the beginning of Satsang, in accordance with an ancient tradition, the wish of the Gayatri Mantra: that all of mankind, that all beings find peace. Although we have been seeing for tens of thousands of years now that the world is not at peace, we continue to wish for this. At the very beginning I intone an OM. This mantra already delighted and fascinated me when I came to India for the first time twenty-five years ago. According to Vedic knowledge, the entire universe is manifested in this sound. In today’s youth culture, the character, the “logo” of this mantra has become quite popular. My master also sang the OM and spoke about its great power. This mantra is a universal sound that resounds even in the Christian tradition in the form of Amen and in Buddhism as Aum, and in Islam as Amin. Otherwise, the form of Satsang is quite free. Sometimes things can proceed quite informally and humorously, and sometimes there is more of a holy atmosphere. Sometimes people dance to some cool music, and people laugh or cry, depending. Nonetheless, fine wine definitely tastes better when drunk from an elegant glass than it does out of a plastic cup. Although the form is not the primary thing, it’s the first thing that is superficially perceived. In reality, though, something quite different is at stake: Self-realization in clarity and love.

125

Do you consciously work with a sort of energy that you pass on to people? You meet people’s eyes and gaze at them for a long time. There are many moments of silence. Is there a conscious impulse that drives you in the direction of people, an impulse to help them? Do you recognize whether someone is awakening? Does something take place consciously within you?

MADHUKAR: We are all energies. If you really know this, no work is necessary any longer. Help and grace just flow ceaselessly. The notion that I am the one who is helping is not present. Impulses and reflections are possible and it is useful to recognize where the one before me “stands,” as it were. In order to respond individually to someone, these things are helpful. But in reality everything takes place entirely of its own accord. Silence is the best medium. Everything takes place out of and in this silence. This love is formless and yet so graspable.